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J1ohnny

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Hello All; I went to the Winstar Casino in Oklahoma last night. The only craps table they have employs the card craps model. HOWEVER, after the cards are shuffled by the CSM, three cards are dealt onto the table. One of the cards will be turned over...say it is a 5 of diamonds, the dealer(stickman) slides the card over a small glass screen which then creates a 'dice throw' image onto the large monitor. The 'dice throw' has NO resemblance to the card that was turned over. The 5 of diamonds became a 'dice throw' of 4 and 2 for a point of 6. This happened several times, none of the turned over cards became their respective dice throws. It seems that whatever card is turned over is then fed over the glass screen...then a COMPUTER generates the dice throw based on the card? Is this correct? And if their state constitution disallows games based on the throw of dice, why would you allow computerized dice throws? Please assist. Thanks.

Actuarial

Winstar used to be my home casino. The way it was explained to me by the card-roulette croupier was that the constitution is concerned with literal dice and and roulette balls. Besides, the computer isn't actually using or throwing dice, it's just using a RNG.

J1ohnny

Thanks; Assuming RNG is random numerical generator, how would the consumer/gambler know whether it is programmed with a bias. My 20 minute observation noted 'no' hardways 4's, 6's, 8's or 10's.

mustangsally

Thanks; Assuming RNG is random numerical generator, how would the consumer/gambler know whether it is programmed with a bias.

no way to know for sure
i say
i thinks also the programmers do not even know, by the method used, how much of a bias their rng they use actually has
they feel it is good enough

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they should just use 2 sets of 6 cards like in CA
simple and easy and fair
my opinion

Quote: J1ohnny

My 20 minute observation noted 'no' hardways 4's, 6's, 8's or 10's.

well the chance the next roll is not a hardway = 32/36
so for 20 rolls without a hardway = abouts 1 in 11
30 rolls = abouts 1 in 35
what do you think the chances are in 20 minutes to see no hardays are?
maybe 1 in 1 million?
so the rng could be rigged?
they could program the software
to produce a roll that would cause the most losses per roll
but i think most would stop playing after losing everything every time they play
if you owned the casino, say
how would you have this done, cant use real dice
to make it fair?
it matters
Sally

Actuarial

what do you think the chances are in 20 minutes to see no hardays are?
maybe 1 in 1 million?
so the rng could be rigged?
Sally

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That means you'd have to roll 120 times in 20 minutes, or one roll every 10 seconds. Assuming 2 rolls a minute, odds of no hardways are about 1%

J1ohnny

Well, thanks to all who responded. I just did not have a good feel for this card crap game as compared to a standard dice game. Just continue to observe, maybe become a don't pass bettor.

Frogger

why don't they use one of the electronic craps games available in the market? There's at least 3 different ones.

dfwbird

They use a 36 card deck. Each card corresponds to a combination of dice. For example 5 of diamonds is a 4,2. 6 of clubs might be 2,4. So there is no RNG involved outside the shuffler. Last time I played there they handed out a sheet of paper showing what all the different cards/results were. A new deck is used for each roll.

tringlomane

why don't they use one of the electronic craps games available in the market? There's at least 3 different ones.

True craps is probably not approved by the state. The cards are a 'work around' to allow the game. I really don't know this for sure though.

PachucoBro

UPDATE:
Figured I would add to this old thread since it came up in Google...
As of August 2018 Winstar now offers $1 Craps games using dice. Tables are available 24/7. There is a $1 ante which is required by state law.
Twitter - /WinStarWorld/status/1031963236361482240
@WinStarWorld: Craps with REAL dice is LIVE here at WinStar! Check it out in the Beijing and Vienna Gaming Plazas now!
/WinStarWorld/status/1041799844996833281
@WinStarWorld: ... Open 24/7, minimum bets are $1!